David Crumm Interviews Brian McLaren: Interfaith peace begins at home
Taken with permission from ReadtheSpirit.com
PART 1:
I n his 19th book, the prophetic evangelical author Brian McLaren is publishing his first interfaith book. It's timed to appear on the anniversary of the 9/11 attacks that opened and still define this turbulent new century.
As you will read in our interview with McLaren later this week, the best-selling writer argues that this new book is far from the typical appeal for interfaith understanding that other writers are producing these days. While many of those books are noble, he has a different purpose in Why Did Jesus, Moses, the Buddha, and Mohammed Cross the Road? Christian Identity in a Multi-Faith World 
FROM OUR INTERVIEW WITH BRIAN ): Brian says, in answer to a question in the interview ...
One of the biggest insights that came to me, as I was researching this book, is the realization that it's not our differences that are keeping us apart. What's keeping us apart is something we actually have in common: The way we often try to build our own identity through hostility. Leaders build loyalty among "us" by building hostility toward "them." It won't work to simply rush off into interfaith dialogue until we deal with some of the deep work within our own identity. We won't get far in our relationships with others until we deal with some of the often hidden ways we have defined ourselves through our hostility.
Perhaps we can see this problem more easily in the political campaign going on right now. If you took away hostility toward Democrats, I'm not sure how much substance is left in the Republican Party. And, if you took away hostility toward Republicans, I don't know how much substance there is in the Democratic Party. The same problem exists in our religious communities.
_ Read the entire interview with Brian McLaren below. _
A RETURN TO BRIAN MCLAREN'S 'GENEROUS ORTHODOXY'
Reviewing Brian McLaren's new book as Editor of ReadTheSpirit, I was struck immediately by the return this book represents to themes that he raised in his 2004 cross-over book: A Generous Orthodoxy : Why I am a missional, evangelical, post-Protestant, liberal/conservative, mystical/poetic, biblical, charismatic/contemplative, Fundamentalist/Calvinist, Anabaptist/Anglican, Methodist, Catholic, Green, incarnational, depressed-yet-hopeful, emergent, unfinished Christian.
In addition to setting a record for longest sub-title on the cover of a spiritual book, Brian staked out the term "Generous" for what he also has described since 2004 as "harmony," "unity" and "civility." McLaren urges people to sit down together across a table, to eat together and to begin forming a good-spirited community-rather than flashing doctrinal swords. Such words of wisdom echo what we are hearing from bright young Christian writers like Jonathan Wilson-Hartgrove, these days.
It was McLaren's "Generous" book that turned heads nationally among non-evangelicals. As a religion newswriter, at that time based at the Detroit Free Press, "Generous" was the first Brian McLaren book that I actually read cover to cover. It was the first McLaren book that I found my newspaper readers asking me about and telling me that they were reading themselves. McLaren was deliberately making a provocative play on words in selecting "Generous" as his mantra. Evangelicals always have set the high mark among Christians for giving money and sweat equity to missions-they always excel (and even boast) about that kind of "generosity." But, Brian was calling for us to focus on a distinctly different meaning of that word. He also was chiding his fellow evangelicals to become _ truly _generous.
In continuing to use the term "generous," McLaren is not talking about drumming up dollars for the collection plate. He's talking about what other writers today are begining to call "kindness" and "hospitality." In his new book, he passionately describes a great "Reformulation" he sees possibly unfolding within Christianity-neither a rejection of orthodoxy nor a rejection of the Protestant Reformation-but a _ rethinking and a renewed appreciation _ of what core Christian beliefs truly mean in light of God's diverse world.
MCLAREN: 'COULD DOCTRINES BECOME HEALING TEACHINGS?'
McLaren writes in the new book: Could it be that our core doctrines are even more wonderful and challenging than we previously imagined, asking us not simply to assent to them in the presence of our fellow assenters, but to practice them in relationships with those who don't hold them? Could our core doctrines in this way become "healing teachings" intended to diagnose and heal our distorted and hostile identities-restoring a strong and benevolent identity, and unleashing in us a joyful desire to converse and eat with the other? Could our core teachings be shared, not as ultimata (Believe or die!) but as gifts (Here's how we see things, and here's what that does for us- )?
MCLAREN: 'WE MUST PROVIDE LOTS OF SUPPORT'
This is not an easy task, McLaren argues in the new book. He writes that, if Christians take his challenge seriously, they must face up to problems in traditional forms of liturgy, preaching and missional outreach. Late in the book he writes : Because the cost of embracing a strong and benevolent Christian identity is so high, we must provide lots of support for those who respond-support through fellowship, support through teaching (knowledge) and training (know-how), support through ritual and symbol, support through guided practice and mentoring. But since we are still young and inexperienced in this new identity, we have a long way to go in learning how to provide this support, and each of us must take whatever little we have learned and pass it on to others, even as we look for others who can pass more on to us.
MCLAREN: 'WHAT WILL WE DISCOVER IN THAT CROSSING?'
In the final pages, McLaren writes : So, imagine then, Jesus, Moses, the Buddha and Mohammed crossing the road to encounter one another. Imagine us following them. What will we discover together in that crossing? Surely, it will be holy and humbling in that sacred space. Surely there will be joy, grace, and peace. Surely justice, truth and love. We will find hospitality there, not hostility, and friendship, not fear, and it will be good-good for our own well-being, good for the poor and forgotten, good for our grandchildren's grandchildren, and good even for the birds of the air and the flowers in the meadow and the fish out at sea. "This is very good," God will say. And we will say, "Amen."
_ PART 2: INTERVIEW WITH BRIAN McLAREN _
B rian McLaren's new book is prophetic. That also means there's real heat surrounding the book's launch-at least in some quarters. Clearly, Brian now has legions of fans who follow his books for their inspiration _ and _ their fresh ideas. We dug into those ideas in ...
HIGHLIGHTS OF OUR INTERVIEW
WITH BRIAN MCLAREN ON
'WHY DID JESUS, MOSES ..."
DAVID: You've faced firestorms. It's got to hurt when some other evangelicals claim that you're no longer a Christian-or say worse things. As a journalist covering religion in America for nearly 40 years, I can tell that you're clearly one of the most passionately committed Christian voices, today. So, how does it feel when you sometimes face misguided fire?
BRIAN: It's always a little hurtful and sad. It's ironic, too. If a Christian Fundamentalist says I'm not a Christian, I think: Well, I've met other Christians-Eastern Orthodox Christians for example-who think that American Fundamentalists aren't Christians. So, the truth is: Everyone defines their terms in different ways. Some people don't realize how big the Christian pond truly is.
DAVID: This new book, your first book really focused on interfaith relationships, is likely to fuel more fire, right?
BRIAN: All I can say is that I'm 56 now and I'm glad that I didn't have to deal with this when I was 26. It would have been devastating then. Now that I'm older, it's not as hard to deal with this kind of response. What we're seeing in those responses really is an anxiety within our religious community. When we're anxious, we immediately guard the doors and gates. We guard them not only because of who might get in-but because of who we fear might get out.
CRIS: CONFLICTED RELIGIOUS IDENTITY SYNDROME
DAVID: I've researched this and we can say that you're the person who has coined the new term CRIS, shorthand for Conflicted Religious Identity Syndrome. That phrase describes people who are, indeed, committed Christians but who find the label "Christian" full of troubling baggage and likely to cause misunderstandings.
BRIAN: It's funny to see how far that term I started using a year or so ago is spreading. I came up with it to describe what a lot of people are experiencing today. We are Christians, but the term is loaded for so many people-so we wind up going through all these explanations and adding all these adjectives to describe the kind of Christian we are to others.
ANNE RICE FACES THE FIRE
DAVID: In your book, you write about Anne Rice's turbulent relationship with Christianity. I know that you've had some contact with Anne Rice as she began writing her series of Christian books.
BRIAN: I read an early version of her first book about the childhood of Jesus, Christ the Lord: Out of Egypt 
DAVID: She's in your new book because you describe how she has sort of rejected Christianity, or at least she has rejected the power structure of "Christian" leaders who like to beat up on vulnerable people like Rice's gay friends.
BRIAN: That's the problem I'm describing. This problem of Conflicted Religious Identity Syndrome really came to a head with Anne Rice, when she said she was quitting Christianity. She announced her change on Facebook. She made it clear she still loves God and believes in Jesus, but she didn't want to be associated with a community that seemed so hostile toward nonmembers and toward people who didn't agree on any number of matters.
CRIS: A BROADER INTERFAITH PROBLEM
DAVID: OK, so here's where it gets interesting. CRIS isn't a problem just for Christians, right? That's a point you make in your book.
BRIAN: Right. You see this problem in so many forms. I was just talking with some Mormons yesterday and when I raised this point, they laughed. They said they certainly feel this. They see themselves as Christians but many other Christians say they're not.
DAVID: And, Christians aren't alone in condemning fellow Christians. I know lots of Muslims and Jews and Native Americans and people of other faiths who publicly reach out across religious boundaries-and other members of their groups condemn them as betraying the core faith. You're saying we share this problem with people of other faiths.
BRIAN: Yes, that's one of the most important points in the new book. I don't think we will achieve greater harmony and understanding among the faiths by minimizing our differences in belief and practice. But one of the things we hold in common is that there are features of our identity and our internal conflicts that we all do experience.
ENCOURAGE YOUR CONGREGATION TO READ NEW VOICES
DAVID: You're a good friend of Rob Bell, who has followed a similar vocational course. He's now left his big Midwest pulpit for the independence of life in California and the freedom to preach and write in any way he sees fit. Having recently interviewed Rob and seeing all these similarities in your career paths, let me ask: Are we in an era when our world is more in need of prophets than pastors?
BRIAN: Rob and I have been friends for years and, yes, we are frequently on the phone sharing advice with each other about different things. We both come from very conservative evangelical backgrounds. As pastors, we were growing, thinking human beings who publicly went through changes in our thinking. I read your interview with Rob in ReadTheSpirit and I hope other people read it, too.
We do have examples today where pastors are prophetic, but it usually means that they're prophetic on behalf of their congregations. All good pastors are trying to bring their congregations along in their ongoing preaching and teaching. I hope that Rob's books and my books and ReadTheSpirit all are helping pastors. If pastors can encourage people in their congregations to start reading websites like yours and books like the ones we're writing now, then that puts a pastor in a much better position as a moderator for what the congregation is reading and is discussing. It's a lot better, as a pastor, to be in the role of advocate and moderator helping your congregation think through the new things they're reading.
COMING TO TERMS WITH CHRISTIAN HOSTILITY
DAVID: I've described this as your first interfaith book, but it's not like most of the other "interfaith" books on my library shelves. This really is a deep exploration of the barriers that Christians throw up against their neighbors of other faiths.
BRIAN: One of the biggest insights that came to me, as I was researching this book, is the realization that it's not our differences that are keeping us apart. What's keeping us apart is something we actually have in common: The way we often try to build our own identity through hostility. Leaders build loyalty among "us" by building hostility toward "them." It won't work to simply rush off into interfaith dialogue until we deal with some of the deep work within our own identity. We won't get far in our relationships with others until we deal with some of the often hidden ways we have defined ourselves through our hostility.
Perhaps we can see this problem more easily in the political campaign going on right now. If you took away hostility toward Democrats, I'm not sure how much substance is left in the Republican Party. And, if you took away hostility toward Republicans, I don't know how much substance there is in the Democratic Party. The same problem exists in our religious communities.
INTERFAITH PEACEMAKING BEGINS AT HOME
DAVID: That's a key insight and, when readers actually go through the book, they'll see that you explore this in detailed ways. You look at liturgy. You look at our missional outreach. You look at the Christian calendar. You get down into the nuts and bolts of parish life. I would describe your message as: There's almost more danger to our diverse communities in the way we talk amongst ourselves, inside our houses of worship, than what we actually say in public. Or maybe: Interfaith peacemaking begins at home.
BRIAN: Yes, that's fair to say. Think of it this way: Even if 10 or 15 percent of us are involved in interfaith experiences-or, let's even say it reaches 25 percent of us who are doing these things-the problem is that leaves 75 percent of us isolated and stoking fires of hostility in our home congregations. Sooner or later, we have to deal with that identity issue.
DAVID: As I read your book, I turned down corners of pages and circled words. The opening half directly addresses the many ways we stoke the fires. Dozens of times, you use words like tension, hostility, conflict, attack, threaten, rivalry and violence. Then, in the second half, when you get into the nuts and bolts of building healthier and more welcoming communities, your chapters are full of terms like benevolence, generous, harmony and unity. Is that a fair way to express the movement between the first and second sections of your book?
BUILDING STRENGTH WITHOUT HOSTILITY
BRIAN: Yes. That's the challenge I'm asking readers to grapple with in the book. When we build our identity around hostility, it's a very strong identity. Then, we begin to fear that, if we reduce the hostility, we will weaken our identity. If I say that it matters less to me that you're Muslim-then does it also matter less to me that I'm Christian? Does it have to be like that?
I think the phrase "spiritual but not religious" is one sign people are giving that they want to end the hostility that they perceive is part of "religion." We can build a strong and benevolent society-we can choose to do that and pursue it. But the second half of my book really is looking at the obstacles we have to overcome in building a Christian identity within our society that is strong, robust and highly committed-but that achieves this strength without defining itself against people who don't share our identity.
DAVID: Before we end this, let's update readers on where you're based now.
BRIAN: For 24 years, I was a pastor in Maryland just outside of Washington D.C. Then, six-and-a-half years ago I left the pastorate for more time writing and speaking. For a couple of years, I continued to be involved in the church where I was pastor. Then, three-and-a-half years ago we moved here to Florida. I live in southwest Florida in a small town and I go to a small church where I don't think anyone has read my books. It's been wonderful to go from the pulpit to being the guy who sits in the fourth row from the back.
DAVID: And what's next?
BRIAN: The next project looks at the whole church year. I have been working on an outline for 52 sermons and a kind of alternative lectionary that would give people a fresh introduction to the Christian faith. What I'm envisioning now is something that, when it's finished, will be useful for a single family, or a congregation or even a whole diocese to adopt for a year. Individuals could sit around a table together, once a week, and go through the year together-or a whole region could do it together. Right now, the most important challenge I see is to help people take a fresh look at what it means to be a Christian in our world.
Please help us to reach a wider audience
We welcome your Emails at _ ReadTheSpirit@Gmail.com
We're also reachable on Twitter, Facebook, Amazon, Huffington Post, YouTube and other social-networking sites. You also can Subscribe to our articles via Email or RSS feed.
Plus, there's a free Monday morning Planner newsletter you may enjoy._
Originally published at www.ReadTheSpirit.com, an online magazine covering religion and cultural diversity.