Rediscovering Jesus: A Revolutionary and Countercultural Leader

In this interview excerpt, Rev. Dr. Carol Lynn Patterson, pastor of First Presbyterian Church in Newark, New Jersey, and creator of transformative faith programs like Free HER, speaks with Rev. Dr. Katie Givens Kime about the enduring relevance of Jesus.
This dialogue is a call to remember Jesus not only as a savior but as a countercultural leader who subverted systems of power. For preachers and theology educators, this offers a profound reminder: the gospel calls us to care for the marginalized, confront injustice, and live authentically in alignment with Christ's example.

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Rev. Dr. Katie Givens Kime How do you think it is that we preach about something that is so old, yet is fresh and new and right in our faces? Where have you had success in doing that?

Rev. Dr. Carol Lynn Patterson I think just reminding people who Jesus is and where he came from. It boggles my mind how so-called Christians cannot care about other human beings first off, and then follow somebody who couldn't get a room in an inn, who was born in a manger, who was a couch surfer. Like, if we met Jesus today, if a lot of churches met Jesus today, they would not call him to pastor their church. They wouldn't like the way he looks, the people he hangs out with, or his economic status. And if we say we follow him, then we've got to care about people who are in those situations.

I just don't understand. But I think what makes it still timely today, even though it was written so long ago, is that human nature has not changed.

Rev. Dr. Katie Givens Kime Human nature has not changed, and what systems can do to us—the systems we've built—can do to us.

Rev. Dr. Carol Lynn Patterson And we've over-spiritualized Jesus. We think he came just for salvation in the here and after. We don't realize that he was a revolutionary and that to call him the savior of the world was to say that Caesar is not. And I'm so confused, I know in church history, we say Constantine was a horrible thing, and I used to have a problem with that. But in some ways, I think it was.

Rev. Dr. Katie Givens Kime Yep, 323—it was that year, 323.

Yep, Constantine.

Rev. Dr. Carol Lynn Patterson And I feel like when we were this underground movement, we had more integrity and alignment with who Jesus is. And I think as we became the chaplains to government, we've compromised so many things of our faith.

Reflection

Rev. Dr. Patterson challenges us to evaluate our understanding of Jesus—not merely as a spiritual figure but as a revolutionary who defied the expectations and systems of his time. She asks us to consider: if Jesus appeared today, would our churches welcome him?

Questions:

1. How can we preach Jesus’ revolutionary message in a way that resonates with today’s congregation?
2. In what ways, as churches and individuals, are we aligned with Jesus’ values, and in what ways have we compromised with societal expectations?
3. How does our faith challenge systems of injustice, both personally and collectively?

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